Who plays the older songs better live?

It can be any member for old to new.

 

 Yes This may not be the best topic, but this forum has gone alittle stale.

 

 

Any ways opinions please! :)

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Permalink Reply by The Smell Of Rain on January 22, 2011 at 12:43
I never said any of the drummers were keyboardists or vice versa... (although Martin Skaroupka does play keyboards in his own time we discovered a while back)

What I actually said was Adrian and Martin (Drummers) are/were more accurate at playing (... SURPRISE!) DRUMS live on their own material and previous material than say Rosie was when she played (no, not drums... she plays:) keyboards a lot of parts were changed sonically or left out completely. Not just Rosie. All Cradle keyboardists (no, no, no, not talking about drummers right now, lest your mind go wandering...) have done it at some point or another, and as I said... it really doesn't bother me at all. It's live. You just live with it and enjoy the show.


But it is MUCH more noticeable to me than when Martin (DRUMMER!) or Adrian (DRUMMER!) change/changed a little fill or added a little pattern here or there (yes, when they play/played drums live. They didn't/don't play keyboards in Cradle. In case you haven't noticed the emerging pattern here!)

 

You could say the same thing about Dani or Sarah (or Rosie, Ashley or Caroline) when they either omit a (vocal) part (Dani usually to breath or prepare for the next part, or just forgets the lyrics sometimes) or when the female vocalist of the moment leaves out a vocal part in favour of a choral part instead. Again this is due to the multiple female parts on the (mostly earlier) albums where they have to choose which part is more integral to the overall sound of the song.

I hope that's as plain and simple as you need it to be this time? :P

Permalink Reply by Scott Milliorn on January 23, 2011 at 4:05
If your trying to suggest that the keyboardist, which uses digital data than can be uploaded, transferred, queued into playback, banked for retrieval later, etc etc. is OMITTED from the live track list, then I give up, and you know it all.  Hell they don't even need a keyboardist for that!  Soundboard people can do that an do for many bands.  One thing  for sure, if you don't hear it in the live mix, that's your own personal inability to hear it, probably from standing in the wrong spot, or whatever, but it is there.  Only you might here changes, is the actually electric piano/organ parts manually played out, and NOT retrieve in the keyboard/midi own banks.  Even then those changes are always an EQ/tone preference.

The Smell Of Rain said:
I never said any of the drummers were keyboardists or vice versa... (although Martin Skaroupka does play keyboards in his own time we discovered a while back)

What I actually said was Adrian and Martin (Drummers) are/were more accurate at playing (... SURPRISE!) DRUMS live on their own material and previous material than say Rosie was when she played (no, not drums... she plays:) keyboards a lot of parts were changed sonically or left out completely. Not just Rosie. All Cradle keyboardists (no, no, no, not talking about drummers right now, lest your mind go wandering...) have done it at some point or another, and as I said... it really doesn't bother me at all. It's live. You just live with it and enjoy the show.


But it is MUCH more noticeable to me than when Martin (DRUMMER!) or Adrian (DRUMMER!) change/changed a little fill or added a little pattern here or there (yes, when they play/played drums live. They didn't/don't play keyboards in Cradle. In case you haven't noticed the emerging pattern here!)

 

You could say the same thing about Dani or Sarah (or Rosie, Ashley or Caroline) when they either omit a (vocal) part (Dani usually to breath or prepare for the next part, or just forgets the lyrics sometimes) or when the female vocalist of the moment leaves out a vocal part in favour of a choral part instead. Again this is due to the multiple female parts on the (mostly earlier) albums where they have to choose which part is more integral to the overall sound of the song.

I hope that's as plain and simple as you need it to be this time? :P

Permalink Reply by The Smell Of Rain on January 23, 2011 at 9:59

No, what I actually said is nothing to do with samples and patches and other playback technology that professional bands use in places (Intro tracks, Tonight In Flames, Temptation, FTCTE intro etc, etc, the list goes on and on...) but that some NOTES (not patch sounds, but the white and black keys pressed by the keyboardist) and STYLES the keyboardists have utilized over the years have been different to what was played on the albums, yet no one really minds, because it's just a live metal band playing one of many many shows!

 

For example in Lord Abortion I seem to remember Robin used to play a groovy version of the cello line in the drop out (on bass guitar, in case you were going to say "But Rob never played cello/keyboards..." lol) until the other cello part comes in (played with a low string sound by Martin) and Rob's actual bassline with the octave parts kicks in. Now Rob's Cello-esque part has stopped, because he is playing his own bass line, and Martin is only playing the second part. On the album version that was played by the celloist Andy and not by a keyboard or bass guitar BUT between the two of them (Rob and Martin) they made a compromise to make that part of the song work well live. To me this difference is more noticeable than any little tweaks Adrian may have made to the drums that I haven't and probably never will notice, if there were any at all. This applies to all the songs in the live situation of course!

 

That is all I am saying in any of my posts, the drums are usually more accurate due to the fact it's one person playing one thing whilst the person behind the keyboard is contending with much more and obviously has to make choices on what to play or what sounds they can sample to a patch, what can be played through the PA (ie, half of Temptation from what I remember, and not just the synths lol...) or what can be changed/omitted all together (the strings in the drop out part of FTCTE for example, which most keyboardists have played differently, normally changing them to a less prominant backing synth string without the staccato style of the original and focusing on the rolling bass driven piano instead).

 

I seem to remember all of GOTDT is softsynths from a movie studio soundbank they had access to, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of DDVA is the same. So there is little chance you'd bother sampling that onto a Triton! (not had any experience with Roland Fantom's, but I'm guessing Ashley wasn't invested too much in the band to bother with such time-consuming things as making patches and organising samples...) It's easier just to get a couple splits of semi-accurate sounds like a synth string & piano for example, as Martin has his Triton set on the PTSF DVD during FTCTE. It's accurate enough despite some compromise. I don't think a touring metal band with the current rotating door of session keyboardists really think about these things as much as you and I have in these last 2 posts to be honest!

"Is it recognizable in some respect to the original tune? Mostly. Can she sing too? Yep. Ok, let's go!"

 

Scott Milliorn said:

blah blah blah...
Permalink Reply by Scott Milliorn on January 23, 2011 at 10:31
I think we are on somewhat same track now, being you ended up repeating some points I made in your own words.  Surprise more people do not compare Rob/Dave in this thread.
Permalink Reply by The Smell Of Rain on January 23, 2011 at 10:47

Yeah, it's certainly a major change in the band's history. I've always preferred Rob, but besides the way Dave plays the bass in HGITF as I mentioned before I don't have a problem with what he does. He always seems to enjoy himself on stage and interact with the audience... (certainly not like Rob! lol. I liked his shy personality) I just guess the bass has become less important over the years on the albums so his playing is not so noticeable.

The material Robin played on had a lot more drum and bass driven drop out sections in songs and even when he couldn't be heard so well he was playing something either interesting or complimentary to the song. I'm sure Dave is fine, just never taken the time to notice to be honest! He is certainly more thrashy/punky from what I remember. I wonder if there are any people here who don't like Robin's playing/style etc as much as Dave's?

As you said, no one seems to really go into this debate much so I'm also eager to hear what people think!

 

Scott Milliorn said:

I think we are on somewhat same track now, being you ended up repeating some points I made in your own words.  Surprise more people do not compare Rob/Dave in this thread.
Permalink Reply by The Rape and Ruin of Lulz on January 23, 2011 at 12:39
Oooo! I've never noticed that before! I'm gonna have to see if I can get subttitles up on the DVD a bit later on.
Permalink Reply by Lifestalker on January 23, 2011 at 15:46

Yes Robin and Dave.....

I miss the times when there were actually bass parts by themselves and drums, also the solo parts The Principle of Evil Made Flesh (old). Why did they take that out? Robin had more groove in a way,

Dave on the other hand plays the much chuggier sound. I loved when he had those parts on Thornography and Godspeed which reminded me of old Cradle. Like on Cemetery and Sundown, Darkness Incarnate.

Permalink Reply by Scott Milliorn on January 24, 2011 at 11:24
Obvious difference is that Robin is a multi instrument songwriter, whereas I am unsure if Dave is multi instrumental or a songwriter at all.  Robin was very groovy and thrashy, old school, very pulse like quality, whereas Dave seems to be very mechanical at time, but smooth, and very consistent but again chuggy in the gallop, whereas Robin was thrash it out instead.  Them too are as much as apples an oranges as anyone I seen in the band, especially around people.  Dave is one of the most visible, social people of the band you will see at shows.  Robin was seemingly opposite.  I compare Robin to guy from Bathory on his own projects, a one man band, never tours or very, very rarely.  Dave operates his own recording company. 

Daimonos said:

Yes Robin and Dave.....

I miss the times when there were actually bass parts by themselves and drums, also the solo parts The Principle of Evil Made Flesh (old). Why did they take that out? Robin had more groove in a way,

Dave on the other hand plays the much chuggier sound. I loved when he had those parts on Thornography and Godspeed which reminded me of old Cradle. Like on Cemetery and Sundown, Darkness Incarnate.

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