The Cradle Of Filth Biography (Unwritten Chapters?)
Foreword
A few days ago I started to work with labeling my live video recordings of the band including line up and setlists which ended up in being a pretty confusing affair. Because of this I decided that I should try to sum up a few things from the bands member history and to at least try to aim the spotlight on the few unwritten and misty chapters of C.O.F history. Now, all this is a pretty hasty draft, written as a discussion. I have mapped out a few key points as well as marking out a few questions along the way to make this an open discussion that will hopefully lead to some conclusion.
Discussion
As I’ve always been told and thought the band was founded by Paul Ryan and Dan with the first members being added were Darren Garden, Jon Pritchard and Benjamin Ryan as a 'session member' to do the orchestrations. When researching and revisiting facts around the first demo 'Invoking the Unclean' I noticed a rather strange thing. In the demo artwork there is mention of a 'Rythm' member (guitarist most probably) named Rob. Now one may think that this is Robin Eaglestone but as far as I know he didn’t came to join the band until somewhere post-august 1992. I’ve also never heard of Robin playing rhythm guitar so who is this ‘Rob’ doing rhythm?
On this chapter I will not go into detail but after the first two demos, as most know by now, Tombstone Records signed a deal with C.O.F to release the band’s first full length album just 10 months after the start. Goetia that were scheduled to be recorded around August 1992 included Jonathan on bass, Darren Garden on drums, the Ryan brothers on guitar and keys resp. and Dani. Somewhere after the unfortunate mischief concerning the financing of the album, leading to its probable destruction, Jon left and Robin Eaglestone joined in filling the bass spot. Now leading up to the ‘Total Fucking Darkness’ recording one may wonder when did Darren Garden get replaced by William ‘Was’ Sargison and when did Paul Allender first came to join the band? My guesses is that Darren Garden got replaced by Was from the band Solemn somewhere around late 1992 or in the first quarter of 1993 and that Paul Allender joined the band somewhere around autumn 1992 but can’t seem to fully confirm this.
The first attempt to record TPOEMF were scheduled to happen around spring or early summer 1993 but had to, due to complications, be pushed back to August same year. The lineup then were as all of us know Dan, Paul R, Paul A, Rob, Ben and Nick replacing Was. Another name worth to mention during this time is Rishi, a friend of the band, who was filling the guitar spot for Paul R on a few live occasions during a brief tour in Portugal 1994. The band then proceeded to record the first version of ‘Dusk…’ but here something happens.
This is an unwritten chapter in C.O.F history. Some say that the first recordings of ‘Dusk…’ in 1995 didn’t please everyone leading to the demise of the first full line up and the break up with Cacophonous Records. Fact seem to suggest that there was an argument and that both the Ryan brothers and Paul Allender decided to leave with the remaining line up releasing V Empire just to get rid of the Cacophonous record deal. I don’t know if the leaving members did try an attempt of converting the unreleased songs on ‘Dusk…’ to The Blood Devine since they did write it but failed to do so for some reason. It seems that I indeed have a live video recording of a show in the Netherlands on the 9th of June 1995 where I most likely can tell that the TPOEMF line up is indeed still intact so something must have happened during, or short after this tour.
I know this may seem very confusing but there most likely was a tour in 1995 that has been little heard of and one may ask, did this tour ever get completed or did the troubles in the band occur somewhere before or during this tour? During late November, December 1995 C.O.F went on a few dates tour visiting Germany and France ending with a release show on Astoria in London, England on the 15th December with an all changed line up consisting of Dan, Stuart, Nick, Greg, Brian and Rob. In an interview for German TV coverage Greg states that he has been in C.O.F for 6 months. Now if my live video recording from June 1995 is labeled right Ben is still very much present as are all the other TPOEMF members. What happened exactly during 1995?
After this things seem pretty straight forward with the exception for a few live stand-in members all the way until the year of 1999. The beginning of a new era for the band started with the, for the spectator, rather sudden demise of longtime member Nicholas Barker, leaving room for Dave Hirschheimer and William ‘Was’ Sargison to return for the recordings of ‘From the Cradle to Enslave EP’ and then later to Adrian Erlandsson getting the job for the U.S. Tour 1999 together with Darren who acted as a stand-in for John ‘Gian’ Piras. The year would then continue with events that almost seem to have led to the end of the band. C.O.F had just returned from a rather brief visit to the USA when all of a sudden lightning strikes, not once but twice. The result is the demise of Les ‘Lector’ Smith and Stuart Anstis. Little is known what exactly happened during this time but as it seems blame has been sent bi-directionally to what were the exact reasons for the split. Some state that Stuart who at the time seem to be the force behind most of the music got somewhat tired of the whole situation leading to inactiveness and lack of motivation to take the band further. Other say that Dan did not approve with how things were decided feeling the power over the band slipping on to others as many other miraculous things happened in his life that he decided to regain control by getting rid of the opponents. Just to make myself very clear all this is none more than rumors and few one-sided facts of the story. Either way these tragic episodes symbols an end era but the question still stands, what really happened during 1999?
To sum up the ending months of the last year of the millennia C.O.F did a few shows in late 1999 with Paul Allender back together with Les ‘Lector’ Smith replacement Mark ‘Captain.Keyboards’ Newby-Robson. After this things seem to have been again rather straight forward with inevitable line up changes.
Conclusion:
My unquestioned goal is to sort out what really happened during these dark spots in C.O.F history and write a full biography regarding members to music, artwork and so on and finally publish it all on an fansite I am working on. I will also include interviews with longtime C.O.F fans as myself and bring back memories from the past and look into the future in both picture and writing. I also want to remind everyone that English is not my native tongue in case there are a few spelling errors. I really hope this thread will be able to sort out some of the questions that may have been brought up but forgotten.
Finally I would like to thank every single member, past and present, which has made Cradle of Filth what it is. Especially thanks to Dan, Paul, Nick, Frather Nihil, Adrian, Les, Stuart, Sarah, Dave, Robin and James for all their hard work and many great memories!
Now… Discuss!!!
Tags: biography, cradle, filth, history, live, members, of, past, present
Views: 120
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ADreamOfWolves on -
Care to upload those live concerts you have of Pre-Dusk era Cradle?
Would love to see it, and your doing a great job on the biography. I knew most of the stuff already, but there were a few things i did not know. Where do you get all this information from?
I always wanted a book just completely of Cradle of Filth's biography, but instead they made that Gospel of Filth crap.
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on -
The information has pretty many sources, all from personal experiences (being a longtime fan), the book you call 'crap' - Gospel Of Filth (which I believe is one of the best books I have ever read) videos, interviews and more.
But I agree with you, a lot of the history is still really misty which is why I have set up the goal to find all those hidden facts myself. Unfortunately I still act as a trader when it comes to all my live videos and audio, this because even I don't have them all yet. But I will consider it when I see my collection being completed (I just miss a handful of all the vids I know if). I have around 62 videos from 1992-2000 so I’m guessing that I’m pretty near.
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Permalink Reply by ADreamOfWolves on
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Damn, your a lucky man. You probably have the best collection of CoF that i know of.
Anything for sale? I have over 100 dollars on my paypal, and I am looking to purchase some rare COF stuff, but i never see anything on ebay that i want.
And sorry about that, im just not interested in all that satan related stuff. I just want to read about Cradle, nothing else!
Anomina said:The information has pretty many sources, all from personal experiences (being a longtime fan), the book you call 'crap' - Gospel Of Filth (which I believe is one of the best books I have ever read) videos, interviews and more.
But I agree with you, a lot of the history is still really misty which is why I have set up the goal to find all those hidden facts myself. Unfortunately I still act as a trader when it comes to all my live videos and audio, this because even I don't have them all yet. But I will consider it when I see my collection being completed (I just miss a handful of all the vids I know if). I have around 62 videos from 1992-2000 so I’m guessing that I’m pretty near.
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Permalink Reply by Final on -
A page of text seems a little short for an acknowledgment. Nevertheless, you got the point through, and you also helped solving the problem you stated in another thread; that threads these days were shallow and superficial and barely focused on the band's essence (please don't pin me down on that, that's solely what I can recall from my initial interpretation).
Let's see, 1995... I think I made my first steps back then. If I had known how awestruck this band would make me feel one day, I certainly would have paid more attention, but, frankly, that was not my decision.
So while I admire and recognize the devotion and work not only by the band but also their long-time fans, I would highly appreciate it if they shared what unique and probably impressive material they possess. After all, if the internet had been like this back then, then very few things of the band's history (if any at all) would now remain shrouded by a veil of speculation. One may like it or not, but one of the internet's main attributes is that it, while being far from omniscient or even omnipotent, possesses an almost flawless memory of virtual data; or simply put: Once a file exists, someone certainly will have a copy of it. In truly non-commercial and merely information-based cases like this, sharing is indeed caring. Frater Nihil not wanting to release the probably highest goal of any Cradle of Filth collector (the initial Dusk) to the public is a comprehensible decision, but fans should try to digitalize their rare items and share them, as this is the only way to ensure that they will survive the decades to come.
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on
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It's a lot of hard work really. Im not as old as some may think so I've been saving like crazy during my school years to be able to afford and buy all C.O.F items which it almost feels like I have to have, being a devoted fan.
For the moment I don't have anything to sell though, sorry. I guess I'm never going to sell most of the items. I did just sell pretty many of my album versions though (Asian, Japan etc.) because i felt it rather unnecessary to have almost the same copy with very minor differences (as a different jewel case) multiple times. At least since all those versions are mass-printed in difference to all the promo- digi- and fan- editions.
Anyway! To add to the original post. If any consider being a devoted fan (preferably longtime fan) please give me a call if you are interested in sharing your C.O.F memories and experiences on the future fansite.
ADreamOfWolves said:Damn, your a lucky man. You probably have the best collection of CoF that i know of.
Anything for sale? I have over 100 dollars on my paypal, and I am looking to purchase some rare COF stuff, but i never see anything on ebay that i want.
And sorry about that, im just not interested in all that satan related stuff. I just want to read about Cradle, nothing else!
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on
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I agree. I just found myself researching old info during my paid Christmas vacation, while I'm supposed to go Christmas shopping, and though "Why not open a thread about it, who knows? It might lead somewhere" and wrote this quick short draft leaving out a lot of info but focusing on the questions for discussion.
I bet there are many who sure are pretty bored with these topics as well and I do excuse for the somewhat foul language I used when I criticized the “Danis singing sounds like…” thread but I just got tired of the discussions never going somewhere except the constant hunt for people’s opinions and not focusing on any interesting fact, happening or other a little bit more intellectual topic relating to the band. As I stated earlier this is one of the most intellectual bands I know of having a huge amount of interesting topics to discuss and one can always hope the fanbase mirrors the band.
Dan has given me so much when it comes to interest in arts and literature, history, different aesthetics and more. When I first got into the band I just started devour all kinds of references I could find from Sheridan Le. Fanu to Lord Byron. And as a result I think it has helped me to find myself and to discover who I am and what I stand for.The big idea behind the fansite I’m building is that I want a focus point and a reference collection to all things rolling around the internets. Like a Wikipedia of sorts (the first name I had for it was ‘Total Fucking Darkness – A C.O.F Wikipedia’). All people deserve to learn from and love this band. Although I’m never going to release any sorts of motion or sound media whitout the bands approval.
Final said:A page of text seems a little short for an acknowledgment. Nevertheless, you got the point through, and you also helped solving the problem you stated in another thread; that threads these days were shallow and superficial and barely focused on the band's essence (please don't pin me down on that, that's solely what I can recall from my initial interpretation).
Let's see, 1995... I think I made my first steps back then. If I had known how awestruck this band would make me feel one day, I certainly would have paid more attention, but, frankly, that was not my decision.
So while I admire and recognize the devotion and work not only by the band but also their long-time fans, I would highly appreciate it if they shared what unique and probably impressive material they possess. After all, if the internet had been like this back then, then very few things of the band's history (if any at all) would now remain shrouded by a veil of speculation. One may like it or not, but one of the internet's main attributes is that it, while being far from omniscient or even omnipotent, possesses an almost flawless memory of virtual data; or simply put: Once a file exists, someone certainly will have a copy of it. In truly non-commercial and merely information-based cases like this, sharing is indeed caring. Frater Nihil not wanting to release the probably highest goal of any Cradle of Filth collector (the initial Dusk) to the public is a comprehensible decision, but fans should try to digitalize their rare items and share them, as this is the only way to ensure that they will survive the decades to come.
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Permalink Reply by J-F on -
Unfortunately you probably won't be hearing a lot about the events surrounding the 1999 firings that you haven't already heard. Stuart was put under a legal gagging clause, after filing a lawsuit against Dani and the management, which prevents him from discussing what really happened. The clause may not be in place anymore after all these years but Stuart still doesn't really like to talk about it. As a point of interest, Les and Stuart have been working on material for a new Ship of Fools album recently.
Damien did not actually record the keyboards on the Vempire EP. The keyboards were recorded by Keith Appleton, owner of Academy Recording Studios. Keith has also recorded keyboards for bands such as Paradise Lost, Anathema and Bal-Sagoth. This obviously throws another spanner into the works because it leaves you asking why didn't Damien record the keyboards for Vempire?
With reference to the statement about Nihil not wanting to release the original Dusk... recordings from 1995...
The fact of the matter is, both Nihil and Dani have stated that they would like to see those recordings released someday. The main problem holding them back from doing so is the fact that there would have to be one hell of a lot of legal agreements, royalty settlements, meetings with past members whom are probably less than happy to line Dani's pockets etc... It is not as easy as you believe it to be. Nihil cannot just go putting those recordings on the internet for people to pillage as they please. It will be released someday... rest assured.
One last point. Paul and Benjamin Ryan were fired from the band. Paul Allender left not long afterwards. The bad blood was only between the Ryan brothers and Dani.
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on
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Great post. I would love though to get some reference on the supposed lawsuit. I've heard it before and I’ve searched like crazy through old articles, interviews and even old website content but as with many other things during this period of time the only material one has is unconfirmed one-sided subjective stories. Though I am sure there is someone out there who has the answers and I promise I will do everything I can to sort this out, for the history’s right to be written supported by real facts.
The discussion around Gregs participation on V Empire is also a interesting topic. I have a few references and subjective stories from the members during the recordings but none seem to state any real facts there either.
I had a short mail correspondence with Frather and he expressed that he would agree to open up for discussion around the topic but I guess there need to be some real driving force behind every party included in this affair for it to happen. To state the facts there would be real problem if this surfaced
whitout being discussed since Frather has the only copy hence everyone will know the source.Do you have any reference to the Ryan brothers being kicked? I can confirm that there were disagreements between the parties but from the material I have they could just have much left as being kicked. The search goes on!
J-F said:Unfortunately you probably won't be hearing a lot about the events surrounding the 1999 firings that you haven't already heard. Stuart was put under a legal gagging clause, after filing a lawsuit against Dani and the management, which prevents him from discussing what really happened. The clause may not be in place anymore after all these years but Stuart still doesn't really like to talk about it. As a point of interest, Les and Stuart have been working on material for a new Ship of Fools album recently.
Damien did not actually record the keyboards on the Vempire EP. The keyboards were recorded by Keith Appleton, owner of Academy Recording Studios. Keith has also recorded keyboards for bands such as Paradise Lost, Anathema and Bal-Sagoth. This obviously throws another spanner into the works because it leaves you asking why didn't Damien record the keyboards for Vempire?
With reference to the statement about Nihil not wanting to release the original Dusk... recordings from 1995...
The fact of the matter is, both Nihil and Dani have stated that they would like to see those recordings released someday. The main problem holding them back from doing so is the fact that there would have to be one hell of a lot of legal agreements, royalty settlements, meetings with past members whom are probably less than happy to line Dani's pockets etc... It is not as easy as you believe it to be. Nihil cannot just go putting those recordings on the internet for people to pillage as they please. It will be released someday... rest assured.
One last point. Paul and Benjamin Ryan were fired from the band. Paul Allender left not long afterwards. The bad blood was only between the Ryan brothers and Dani.
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Permalink Reply by J-F on
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http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-99_cradle_of_filt...
CoC:
What are your feelings on the other bands that some of the former members have formed? Some of them have a pretty similar sound, wouldn't you say? Actually one of them (Hecate Enthroned) is -extremely- similar in sound.Dani:
Yeah, well I won't even -mention- that band's name because I mean, people say "Are you worried about it?" Well what have we got to worry about, it's an imitation, and it's ridiculous. It doesn't even make much sense, really. But, you know, good luck to them, if they want to rip off our ideas... it's flattering, really. As for Blood Divine, I think they're kicking themselves now, because one of the reasons that... well, the two brothers were kicked out, but the other guy, I was the best man at his wedding about a month before he left, which made me the godfather to his son. But I've often spoken to him since then, and he's just a completely different character now. I'm sure he's kicking himself. And, you know, that's his just fucking reward. But I'm not going to run my mouth and slag off his band, because they're probably quite good, I mean they were in our band. I still have a lot of respect for them, but as far as I'm concerned they're getting their just rewards.There are a few other interesting interviews with Cradle of Filth on that site. In the above one Dani even stated that they had written material for another Vempire style EP due for release between Dusk and Cruelty. What an absolute shame that it was never recorded/released!
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on
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Great!
I have a similar interview with the similar facts but just on a text file so I can't confirm the interviewer nor that the interview actually took place. I've stumbled across a few fake interviews as well as 'redefined' answers so until I can confirm the actual source to a magazine and the author I can just take it as an one-sided subjective story and not real fact. I would really love to hear the Ryan brothers’ version to at least maybe confirm a few facts in the unsourced interviews. Any idea what CoC stands for?
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Permalink Reply by J-F on
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Look at the link I posted at the top of my post. Chronicles Of Chaos have been around for years, a very trusted source.
Read their Cradle of Filth interviews, they contain some very interesting statements.
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-99_cradle_of_filt...
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-174_cradle_of_fil...
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-316_cradle_of_fil...
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Permalink Reply by Anomina on
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Ah, hehe you read my mind :) Thanks, I’ll contact the writers and see what I can get confirmed but at first glance I would judge this site as being rather trustworthy. It’s the big hassle with writing history and it’s many times lacking sources but this really helped. I think I have another interview from this site saved as a text file without author and time for publish. Thanks again, more of this and this thread might lead somewhere.
J-F said:
Look at the link I posted at the top of my post. Chronicles Of Chaos have been around for years, a very trusted source.
Read their Cradle of Filth interviews, they contain some very interesting statements.
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-99_cradle_of_filt...
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-174_cradle_of_fil...
http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-316_cradle_of_fil...
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